I’m with you Caleb! (Although it’s easy to agree with you agreeing with me, of course.)

It’s so hard now because bloggers are both the writers and the publishers, the reviewers and the ad sales team for their own sites. And the PR teams are increasingly being tasked with placing more than just stories on blogs. I can see how easily it’s all getting complicated and muddied, even for pros like Edelman.

Also in violent agreement. The defining question, in my opinion, is how much *control* does the company or agency want in the program. If the company wants a certain number of posts, or posts to appear at a certain time etc., it’s an advertising or advertorial program, and payment and disclosure are required.

You’re very gracious, Liz – more so than I. But that might be because I’ve seen the way bloggers tend to be taken for granted by PR teams. I loved your post because you empowered moms to ask for what they deserve. I’d like to see that same kind of empowerment for all kinds of bloggers, and I’d like to see agencies taking the lead on it.

Thanks for starting a great conversation.

Exactly. I think the problem is that naive companies/agencies automatically associate any social media activities with “free”. We need to educate both parties about when payment is appropriate and deserved.

Thanks for stopping by, Susan!

At first glance I didn’t think I agreed but after reading both posts I have to say I understand your points. Advertising is advertising and it deserves payment. I would also find it insulting for my work to be considered “help” and to be paid in the form of a link. I was glad to see the product reviews clarification because that is what originally made me think I wouldn’t agree with this post. This should start a good and interesting debate!

Thanks Kimberly! Glad to hear we’re all on the same page. Now we just have to figure out next steps to move the community forward.

I'm with you Caleb! (Although it's easy to agree with you agreeing with me, of course.)

It's so hard now because bloggers are both the writers and the publishers, the reviewers and the ad sales team for their own sites. And the PR teams are increasingly being tasked with placing more than just stories on blogs. I can see how easily it's all getting complicated and muddied, even for pros like Edelman.

Also in violent agreement. The defining question, in my opinion, is how much *control* does the company or agency want in the program. If the company wants a certain number of posts, or posts to appear at a certain time etc., it's an advertising or advertorial program, and payment and disclosure are required.

You're very gracious, Liz – more so than I. But that might be because I've seen the way bloggers tend to be taken for granted by PR teams. I loved your post because you empowered moms to ask for what they deserve. I'd like to see that same kind of empowerment for all kinds of bloggers, and I'd like to see agencies taking the lead on it.

Thanks for starting a great conversation.

Exactly. I think the problem is that naive companies/agencies automatically associate any social media activities with “free”. We need to educate both parties about when payment is appropriate and deserved.

Thanks for stopping by, Susan!

At first glance I didn't think I agreed but after reading both posts I have to say I understand your points. Advertising is advertising and it deserves payment. I would also find it insulting for my work to be considered “help” and to be paid in the form of a link. I was glad to see the product reviews clarification because that is what originally made me think I wouldn't agree with this post. This should start a good and interesting debate!

At first glance I didn't think I agreed but after reading both posts I have to say I understand your points. Advertising is advertising and it deserves payment. I would also find it insulting for my work to be considered “help” and to be paid in the form of a link. I was glad to see the product reviews clarification because that is what originally made me think I wouldn't agree with this post. This should start a good and interesting debate!

Thanks Kimberly! Glad to hear we're all on the same page. Now we just have to figure out next steps to move the community forward.

What about the responsibility bloggers have for not being immature whiners who simply want attention? For example the Motrin Moms fiasco. If you get paid, as a blogger, there should be higher standards. And part of those standards should be that you need to act like a mature adult…kinda like an employee…but not really. Think about it this way. When you pay to run ads on Parenting.com theres a certain responsibility that comes with the relationship. The coordinators and reps at Parenting.com act like mature adults, they don’t yell or scream and they have an obligation to be fair, rational and honest.If as a blogger you don’t think you can handle that responsibility, why should we pay you?

There’s a matter of trust and respect here that oftentimes is overlooked. Brands and agencies need to respect the bloggers and audiences while listening to what they want and how they would like to manage and receive brand messages. Then they have to trust that the bloggers know their business and their audiences better than any brand or agency does.

Engagements can be created in ways that compensate the blogger in the currency (money, acknowledgment, products, etc.) they want while sharing information that feels worthwhile to their audience.

The muddiness of these ever-changing waters that Mom101 mentions are ones we’ll be navigating for awhile.

Hey Adam,

A couple of things:

(1) I think you’re over-simplifying the “Motrin Moms” situation. There can be a group-think mentality in these kinds of situations that can cause them to be overblown, and that’s how it’s usually portrayed in the media – but I think it’s important to remember that bloggers are individuals. And if an individual mom is offended by something a brand does, she has every right to express it, and you have every right to disagree with her. But I’d hesitate to label an entire movement as one thing or another.

(2) If you don’t want to work with a blogger because of his or her tone, offensive (or as you call it, “whiny”) posts, etc., then that’s an easy fix: don’t. I think the onus here is on the agency to find the right bloggers for the right programs.

Thoughts?

The motrin moms, the whirlpool situation and many others are blown out of proportion. If the mom is being paid, like advertising, I don’t see how she gets the choice to trash a brand/product or incite the “group-think” mentality. Again, If I paid Parenting.com to run a feature on my product, you can bet they won’t be trashing it. That’s the control that comes with paid advertising and placement.

If the bloggers want to be paid, they need to he held to a higher standard and set of requirements. Most are unwilling to offer that. Think about it. Why would I pay a blogger to trash my product?

[...] post en el blog de Edelman Digital, mostrando cómo deben actuar las agencias de PR y de publicidad a la hora de buscar bloggers para promocionar sus campañas. [...]

Excellent points, Brett. The waters are very muddy right now, but if both sides go out of their way to respect each other, that’ll go a long way to creating mutually beneficial relationships.

Thanks!

It doesn’t bother me so much that agencies ask, it’s this attitude of “Oh, they’re just some blogger — they’ll jump at the opportunity to help us promote X for our client.” There’s nothing wrong with asking, and sometimes there’s a great value add that isn’t necessarily monetary compensation (e.g. I will usually review a book if you send me 2 copies), but sometimes I think agencies act more entitled than Gen Y.

Great post and au courant. A lively discussion about the same topic erupted yesterday in the comments on my post with many bloggers who commented debating amongst themselves. http://davejones.ca/blog/2010/5/12/bloggers-and…What we all have to keep in mind is that we all try to categorize and simplify. All bloggers, pitches, agencies and PR departments are not created equal or have the same mandates or motivations. That means there’s no one right answer. If you’re not reaching out to bloggers with respect for their editorial independence and humility about your place in their world then how can you expect to build a relationship that’s mutually beneficial?

It’s almost worse when companies offer $15 per 500-1000 word post. Really? Places like Demand Studios are just as bad.

Using iPhone so excuse any innappropriate mistakes.

I understand what you’re saying, but is it not up to the blogger to make it clear what is they want? No ones forcing them to take on these arrangements for free. Perhaps it’s an issue with the standards set by the blogosphere. If most bloggers are willing to do something for free, it’s going to be harder for a blogger to demand payment.

Is it moral for agencies to ask bloggers to do these things for free? Maybe not. But why would they pay when there’s suh a large supply of free options?

I think bloggers need to make their expectations clear up front. It’s Something were working on at scribnia, to help writers get fair opportunities to work with businesses.

David, scribnia.

In the situations you’re talking about, the bloggers responding were not spokespersons for the organizations, so I think that’s a different issue. I totally agree that payment takes the relationship to another level, but I think most bloggers you’d want to work with understand that. Thus the importance of vetting any blogger that you work with to see where they fall – that way you trust them to publicize your clients fairly (as Brett says below).l

That’s exactly the process that I label predatory: taking advantage of bloggers that may jump at the prospect of working for big brands (for free) just because they can. I feel like it’s the agency’s responsibility to treat the blogger – no matter their influence or experience level – fairly.

Re: the reviews, I’d consider that editorial content anyway. That shouldn’t be paid for in my books.

I totally agree that there’s an oversimplification that can happen on both ends, so glad you brought that up. I think every party should be judged individually (even though our instinct is to lump people/agencies together).

Great point, Dave!

You just gave me chills.

That was exactly Liz’s point in her post. Bloggers have to educate each other about how to get a fair shake.

But to your point about whether or not it’s “moral” for agencies to take advantage of free options, you seem to think it’s inevitable. Do you not think that by setting higher standards on both sides (agencies and bloggers), we can flush out the “predators” who do this kind of thing?

Andrew Keen warned us this would happen, and it’s getting worse.

Caleb
You make some excellent points here. I think that what might be missing from the conversation is what the payment is for, which is influence. If I’m an agency asking bloggers for their help with a campaign I want to know what kind of influence they wield. The greater the influence the greater the compensation. So if the blogger in question is not yet that well known but writes well, the opportunity to reach a wider audience through promotion by a big brand might well be an appropriate level of compensation. However, if I’m considering working with an A list blogger who already has a large audience then I should know that I am not going to get a free-ride.
I’m in the same position as you. I work with bloggers on behalf of clients. I am also a blogger and work with brands on my on behalf as an online product advocate (yes new term for paid blogger). So I see both sides of the argument. What I take in compensation varies from case to case. Sometimes its in the form of sponsorship – Chevy recently sponsored me to drive from Austin to Chicago and back for a conference. Sometimes its a trip or a product sample, sometimes (rarely) its cash. Mainly I don’t ask for cash. I prefer the freebies but thats me and I am not reliant on my blog to generate revenue. If I were, you can bet I’d be asking the brands to pony up.
I do agree however, that once you take the cash, the expectations of you rise, your editorial responsibilities increase. I however, see that as a good thing. Blogs shouldn’t be journalism dumbed down. There needs to be integrity and professionalism amongst bloggers who have enough influence to warrant being paid (however that payment is made).
Simon

I don’t think it’s inevitable, I think it’s the status quo. I think that when businesses first started doing blog outreach campaigns, blogging didn’t have much credibility, and the true impact of a blog post wasn’t quite understood or measured… so it wasn’t something companies were willing to pay for.

Now, it’s clear that a blog post can have significant and measurable impact for a business or product. But it’s still the standard to take on these arrangements for free, or for alternatives to cash.

How can it be changed? Not a very easy thing to do. You have to shift the standard. Perhaps by providing bloggers with more tools and information? Educating them? Perhaps by giving bloggers a way to prove their measurable impact? In order to charge more for something, it has to be considerably more valuable than its alternatives. If there’s another blogger with the same level of impact, who’s willing to take on a campaign for free, then it’s hard to charge anything.

Perhaps the question is simply, what can a blogger offer for cash, that another blogger can’t offer for free?

This strikes me as self-correcting problem. Bloggers that continue to blog for free will either maintain a hobbyist role or will burn out and give up. At that point, the “advertiser” will have gotten what they paid for — not much.

This reminds me of the early days of Web design, when clients would actually have the gumption to ask for a site to be made, and then they’d pay for it “if they liked it.” Predatory? Eh, maybe. Sustainable? Obviously not. Those companies ended up with terrible products from the chump designers who didn’t value their work enough to charge for it.

It sucks, but on the other side, is this another way of sorting out the men from the boys?

Social Media is not FREE. It is a component of a strategy (if planned and executed properly) that should come with the plan and compensation points for each executable step. If part of the plan is to have authentic voices review and promote the product, then there should be compensation for that piece, i.e. bloggers. A blogger is not just writing a piece, they promote, distribute, tweet, Facebook it etc… so there’s a whole eco-system of touch-points that link back to the brand which are valuable. Each of these touch points are amplified by who they influence. If a “B” list blogger touches an “A” list blogger and they retweet or reference the post, that’s even more value. Which is why I don’t agree with a sliding scale for bloggers who provide reviews and publishing/marketing services. I also disagree with the comment about if you got it for free you can’t “dis” the brand. Really? The FTC has rules about that and if I don’t like a product and I want to use my influence to tell people about my dis-satisfaction online or offline I’m going to do it. Telling a blogger how they should write /position a product review or to not disclose their authentic voice without checking with the agency/brand first is tantamount to fraud… No blogger who wants to be recognized as a trusted brand will do this, the ones who get tricked into it are probably not savvy about best practices but will soon find their reporting to come back to haunt them.

What about the responsibility bloggers have for not being whiny babies. For example the Motrin Moms fiasco. If you get paid, as a blogger, there should be higher standards. And part of those standards should be that you need to act like a mature adult…kinda like an employee…but not really. Think about it this way. When you pay to run ads on Parenting.com theres a certain responsibility that comes with the relationship. The coordinators and reps at Parenting.com act like mature adults, they don't yell or scream and they have an obligation to be fair, rational and honest.

If as a blogger you don't think you can handle that responsibility, why should we pay you?

What about the responsibility bloggers have for not being whiny babies. For example the Motrin Moms fiasco. If you get paid, as a blogger, there should be higher standards. And part of those standards should be that you need to act like a mature adult…kinda like an employee…but not really. Think about it this way. When you pay to run ads on Parenting.com theres a certain responsibility that comes with the relationship. The coordinators and reps at Parenting.com act like mature adults, they don't yell or scream and they have an obligation to be fair, rational and honest.

If as a blogger you don't think you can handle that responsibility, why should we pay you?

There's a matter of trust and respect here that oftentimes is overlooked. Brands and agencies need to respect the bloggers and audiences while listening to what they want and how they would like to manage and receive brand messages. Then they have to trust that the bloggers know their business and their audiences better than any brand or agency does.

Engagements can be created in ways that compensate the blogger in the currency (money, acknowledgment, products, etc.) they want while sharing information that feels worthwhile to their audience.

The muddiness of these ever-changing waters that Mom101 mentions are ones we'll be navigating for awhile.

Thanks for the recap Caleb, I think though some clarification is needed on what you guys at Edelman Digital mean by “programs” and “requirements” for which you feel is necessary to pay bloggers, maybe with some example. The borderline with paying for a post/reviews is often easy to trespass and Edelman sets an example internationally, so the clearer the better

I think you hit the nail on the head about education. Blogging may have started out with little credibility, but most businesses definitely understand the value now. So bloggers have to understand the value they’re providing, and when they’re providing something that should be paid for versus something that shouldn’t. There are people confused on both accounts.

Still, I think responsible agencies can have a role in this transition by not taking advantage of bloggers, no matter whether or not they think they should be paid. Of course not every agency will do this, but I’m glad to be a part of one that does.

Muddy, muddy waters.

If you’re nice I’ll show you my pitch folder. It’s really sad because I know that someone is saying “yes” to all these horrible ideas.

Hey Adam,

A couple of things:

(1) I think you're over-simplifying the “Motrin Moms” situation. There can be a group-think mentality in these kinds of situations that can cause them to be overblown, and that's how it's usually portrayed in the media – but I think it's important to remember that bloggers are individuals. And if an individual mom is offended by something a brand does, she has every right to express it, and you have every right to disagree with her. But I'd hesitate to label an entire movement as one thing or another.

(2) If you don't want to work with a blogger because of his or her tone, offensive (or as you call it, “whiny”) posts, etc., then that's an easy fix: don't. I think the onus here is on the agency to find the right bloggers for the right programs.

Thoughts?

I’m not sure influence matters as much as what you’re asking the blogger to do. Influence of course is something to take into consideration when choosing which bloggers to work with, but if I’m asking a blogger with low influence to post a badge on his or her page, write sponsored posts, promote on social media venues, etc. I think that’s worthy of compensation with more than just free products (with full disclosure, of course).

Likewise, if I’m asking a highly influential blogger to only review a product on a non-spokesperson level, that’s editorial content that shouldn’t be paid for regardless of his or her level of influence.

The motrin moms, the whirlpool situation and many others are blown out of proportion. If the mom is being paid, like advertising, I don't see how she gets the choice to trash a brand/product or incite the “group-think” mentality. Again, If I paid Parenting.com to run a feature on my product, you can bet they won't be trashing it. That's the control that comes with paid advertising and placement.

If the bloggers want to be paid, they need to he held to a higher standard and set of requirements. Most are unwilling to offer that. Think about it. Why would I pay a blogger to trash my product?

Interesting theory, and I wouldn’t be surprised if you were right. But can’t smart people/organizations help that process along on both sides?

Excellent points, Brett. The waters are very muddy right now, but if both sides go out of their way to respect each other, that'll go a long way to creating mutually beneficial relationships.

Thanks!

It doesn't bother me so much that agencies ask, it's this attitude of “Oh, they're just some blogger — they'll jump at the opportunity to help us promote X for our client.” There's nothing wrong with asking, and sometimes there's a great value add that isn't necessarily monetary compensation (e.g. I will usually review a book if you send me 2 copies), but sometimes I think agencies act more entitled than Gen Y.

Totally agree about the sliding scale, and about the authentic reviewing. I do think however that if a brand is working directly with a blogger for a long-term (compensated) program, that there are things the brand can ask for, and responsibilities the blogger has toward the brand. Not in an editorial sense, but in a professional relationship sense. Make sense?

Great post and au courant. A lively discussion about the same topic erupted yesterday in the comments on my post with many bloggers who commented debating amongst themselves. http://davejones.ca/blog/2010/5/12/bloggers-and…

What we all have to keep in mind is that we all try to categorize and simplify. All bloggers, pitches, agencies and PR departments are not created equal or have the same mandates or motivations. That means there's no one right answer.

If you're not reaching out to bloggers with respect for their editorial independence and humility about your place in their world then how can you expect to build a relationship that's mutually beneficial?

It's almost worse when companies offer $15 per 500-1000 word post. Really? Places like Demand Studios are just as bad.

Thanks for the kind words, Marco.

The best example I can think of: if we send a blogger a product to review, then that blogger has the option of reviewing it or not, posting a positive or negative review, etc. and that’s where the relationship ends. That isn’t something we’d pay for. A blogger’s opinion about a product/service should be his or her own, and not influenced by monetary compensation from us or our clients.

However, if we were to hire (i.e. pay) a blogger to be a “spokesblogger” for one of our clients, then there would be certain requirements that would go along with the program as part of that compensation. For instance, a certain number of (disclosed) sponsored posts (where the blogger writes what he or she wants), a badge on their site, or similar things. Of course we’d only want to work with bloggers that we know have a good relationship with our brands, for both parties’ sake.

Does that help clarify?

Yes, that’s exactly the way we at Hagakure behave, and I’m glad to hear that Edelman has this position. I’ll be happy to share that along in the italian industry.

Really? I’d love to read that if you could pass along.

Glad to hear it. Ciao dagli Stati Uniti!

Though I don’t completely agree, the overall theme is solid and he makes a few excellent points.

http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Amateur-MySpace-user-generated-destroying/dp/0385520816/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273787843&sr=8-1

I’m sure you’ve got mounds and mounds of “interesting” pitches, Jessica.

But I’m curious – what about it is muddy to you?

Using iPhone so excuse any innappropriate mistakes.

I understand what you're saying, but is it not up to the blogger to make it clear what is they want? No ones forcing them to take on these arrangements for free. Perhaps it's an issue with the standards set by the blogosphere. If most bloggers are willing to do something for free, it's going to be harder for a blogger to demand payment.

Is it moral for agencies to ask bloggers to do these things for free? Maybe not. But why would they pay when there's suh a large supply of free options?

I think bloggers need to make their expectations clear up front. It's Something were working on at scribnia, to help writers get fair opportunities to work with businesses.

David, scribnia.

In the situations you're talking about, the bloggers responding were not spokespersons for the organizations, so I think that's a different issue. I totally agree that payment takes the relationship to another level, but I think most bloggers you'd want to work with understand that. Thus the importance of vetting any blogger that you work with to see where they fall – that way you trust them to publicize your clients fairly (as Brett says below).l

That's exactly the process that I label predatory: taking advantage of bloggers that may jump at the prospect of working for big brands (for free) just because they can. I feel like it's the agency's responsibility to treat the blogger – no matter their influence or experience level – fairly.

Re: the reviews, I'd consider that editorial content anyway. That shouldn't be paid for in my books.

The whole Pr/blogger relationship.

I need publicists to show me embargoed studies, to point out new
technology or to send the ocassional sample.

What I don’t need are talking points, badges for enthusiasts or long
weekends at posh reorts without my family. These are the reasons I
can’t trust bloggers who discuss products.

I know bloggers can have a meaningful negative impact on a brand, but
I’m not sure we have enough trust or reach to actually help a brand
any more.

And yes, it pains me to say that.

Typos?
Blame my iPhone or my colluge

http://www.JessicaGottlieb.com

I totally agree that there's an oversimplification that can happen on both ends, so glad you brought that up. I think every party should be judged individually (even though our instinct is to lump people/agencies together).

Great point, Dave!

You just gave me chills.

That was exactly Liz's point in her post. Bloggers have to educate each other about how to get a fair shake.

But to your point about whether or not it's “moral” for agencies to take advantage of free options, you seem to think it's inevitable. Do you not think that by setting higher standards on both sides (agencies and bloggers), we can flush out the “predators” who do this kind of thing?

Wow… how sad that you think that, especially being a blogger yourself. I’ve yet to give up hope that PR agencies and bloggers can work together in a relationship that’s fully transparent and benefits all parties (including their readership).

The waters are definitely muddy, but couldn’t you say that about traditional media as well? Are they still to be trusted?

Blogging has gifted me an intense distrust of all media.

The morning shows make me ill as all I can see is press releases and
pseudo journalism.

That being said, I would NEVER call myself a journalist

Typos?
Blame my iPhone or my colluge

http://www.JessicaGottlieb.com

If a blogger is working exclusively for a brand, then they are not an independent blogger. Brands can have bloggers on the payroll as employees and dictate what they right, but if I’m a blogger, I own my own business and reputation. I work as a professional and say what I mean and mean what I say – which is full disclosure and going into any agreement, it is established as such. Airing dirty laundry is not professional (I don’t like the PR person, etc… Saying this product does not work as advertised IS NOT dirty laundry. It is professional to disclose it and even better for the brand if they are alerted to the issue and fix it. But it is NOT professional to just roll with it and exclude info that you feel should be talked about. Too many times brands take this FEEDBACK as negative when they should be happy to catch it – especially when it is on a new product launch and they can make changes before too many issues occur with other people who aren’t on the payroll to cover it up.

Great post and ongoing discussion. Key point for brands is to look for creative ways to work with bloggers as they might work with any other IMC vendor. Looking at them as an integral supplier to the marketing department as opposed to as a media outlet will benefit both brand and bloggers.

Product reviews are only one way to work with bloggers. Brands that harness the creativity of bloggers to promote their brand in unique ways will succeed.

Andrew Keen warned us this would happen, and it's getting worse.

Caleb
You make some excellent points here. I think that what might be missing from the conversation is what the payment is for, which is influence. If I'm an agency asking bloggers for their help with a campaign I want to know what kind of influence they wield. The greater the influence the greater the compensation. So if the blogger in question is not yet that well known but writes well, the opportunity to reach a wider audience through promotion by a big brand might well be an appropriate level of compensation. However, if I'm considering working with an A list blogger who already has a large audience then I should know that I am not going to get a free-ride.
I'm in the same position as you. I work with bloggers on behalf of clients. I am also a blogger and work with brands on my on behalf as an online product advocate (yes new term for paid blogger). So I see both sides of the argument. What I take in compensation varies from case to case. Sometimes its in the form of sponsorship – Chevy recently sponsored me to drive from Austin to Chicago and back for a conference. Sometimes its a trip or a product sample, sometimes (rarely) its cash. Mainly I don't ask for cash. I prefer the freebies but thats me and I am not reliant on my blog to generate revenue. If I were, you can bet I'd be asking the brands to pony up.
I do agree however, that once you take the cash, the expectations of you rise, your editorial responsibilities increase. I however, see that as a good thing. Blogs shouldn't be journalism dumbed down. There needs to be integrity and professionalism amongst bloggers who have enough influence to warrant being paid (however that payment is made).
Simon

I don't think it's inevitable, I think it's the status quo. I think that when businesses first started doing blog outreach campaigns, blogging didn't have much credibility, and the true impact of a blog post wasn't quite understood or measured… so it wasn't something companies were willing to pay for.

Now, it's clear that a blog post can have significant and measurable impact for a business or product. But it's still the standard to take on these arrangements for free, or for alternatives to cash.

How can it be changed? Not a very easy thing to do. You have to shift the standard. Perhaps by providing bloggers with more tools and information? Educating them? Perhaps by giving bloggers a way to prove their measurable impact? In order to charge more for something, it has to be considerably more valuable than its alternatives. If there's another blogger with the same level of impact, who's willing to take on a campaign for free, then it's hard to charge anything.

Perhaps the question is simply, what can a blogger offer for cash, that another blogger can't offer for free?

This strikes me as self-correcting problem. Bloggers that continue to blog for free will either maintain a hobbyist role or will burn out and give up. At that point, the “advertiser” will have gotten what they paid for — not much.

This reminds me of the early days of Web design, when clients would actually have the gumption to ask for a site to be made, and then they'd pay for it “if they liked it.” Predatory? Eh, maybe. Sustainable? Obviously not. Those companies ended up with terrible products from the chump designers who didn't value their work enough to charge for it.

It sucks, but on the other side, is this another way of sorting out the men from the boys?

Social Media is not FREE. It is a component of a strategy (if planned and executed properly) that should come with the plan and compensation points for each executable step. If part of the plan is to have authentic voices review and promote the product, then there should be compensation for that piece, i.e. bloggers. A blogger is not just writing a piece, they promote, distribute, tweet, Facebook it etc… so there's a whole eco-system of touch-points that link back to the brand which are valuable. Each of these touch points are amplified by who they influence. If a “B” list blogger touches an “A” list blogger and they retweet or reference the post, that's even more value. Which is why I don't agree with a sliding scale for bloggers who provide reviews and publishing/marketing services. I also disagree with the comment about if you got it for free you can't “dis” the brand. Really? The FTC has rules about that and if I don't like a product and I want to use my influence to tell people about my dis-satisfaction online or offline I'm going to do it. Telling a blogger how they should write /position a product review or to not disclose their authentic voice without checking with the agency/brand first is tantamount to fraud… No blogger who wants to be recognized as a trusted brand will do this, the ones who get tricked into it are probably not savvy about best practices but will soon find their reporting to come back to haunt them.

I think you hit the nail on the head about education. Blogging may have started out with little credibility, but most businesses definitely understand the value now. So bloggers have to understand the value they're providing, and when they're providing something that should be paid for versus something that shouldn't. There are people confused on both accounts.

Still, I think responsible agencies can have a role in this transition by not taking advantage of bloggers, no matter whether or not they think they should be paid. Of course not every agency will do this, but I'm glad to be a part of one that does.

Thanks for the recap Caleb, I think though some clarification is needed on what you guys at Edelman Digital mean by “programs” and “requirements” for which you feel is necessary to pay bloggers, maybe with some example. The borderline with paying for a post/reviews is often easy to trespass and Edelman sets an example internationally, so the clearer the better

Muddy, muddy waters.

If you're nice I'll show you my pitch folder. It's really sad because I know that someone is saying “yes” to all these horrible ideas.

I'm not sure influence matters as much as what you're asking the blogger to do. Influence of course is something to take into consideration when choosing which bloggers to work with, but if I'm asking a blogger with low influence to post a badge on his or her page, write sponsored posts, promote on social media venues, etc. I think that's worthy of compensation with more than just free products (with full disclosure, of course).

Likewise, if I'm asking a highly influential blogger to only review a product on a non-spokesperson level, that's editorial content that shouldn't be paid for regardless of his or her level of influence.

Interesting theory, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were right. But can't smart people/organizations help that process along on both sides?

Totally agree about the sliding scale, and about the authentic reviewing. I do think however that if a brand is working directly with a blogger for a long-term (compensated) program, that there are things the brand can ask for, and responsibilities the blogger has toward the brand. Not in an editorial sense, but in a professional relationship sense. Make sense?

Thanks for the kind words, Marco.

The best example I can think of: if we send a blogger a product to review, then that blogger has the option of reviewing it or not, posting a positive or negative review, etc. and that's where the relationship ends. That isn't something we'd pay for. A blogger's opinion about a product/service should be his or her own, and not influenced by monetary compensation from us or our clients.

However, if we were to hire (i.e. pay) a blogger to be a “spokesblogger” for one of our clients, then there would be certain requirements that would go along with the program as part of that compensation. For instance, a certain number of (disclosed) sponsored posts (where the blogger writes what he or she wants), a badge on their site, or similar things. Of course we'd only want to work with bloggers that we know have a good relationship with our brands, for both parties' sake.

Does that help clarify?

Yes, that's exactly the way we at Hagakure behave, and I'm glad to hear that Edelman has this position. I'll be happy to share that along in the italian industry.

Really? I'd love to read that if you could pass along.

Glad to hear it. Ciao dagli Stati Uniti!

I think we’re basically on the same page. It all comes back to having trust in the professional relationship between the blogger and the business, as Brett mentioned earlier. The trust and respect needs to come from both sides for it to work.

Thanks Stephanie!

I'm sure you've got mounds and mounds of “interesting” pitches, Jessica.

But I'm curious – what about it is muddy to you?

What a great point, Maryanne. The reason this is hard to do is because of Liz’s point in the first comment, that bloggers are “both the writers and the publishers, the reviewers and the ad sales team”. Bloggers do so much, it’s hard to put them in a box as being one thing or another for your marketing program.

They’re also individuals who have individual tastes and interests, which makes working with each one interesting (sometimes rewarding, sometimes frustrating) in a different way.

The whole Pr/blogger relationship.

I need publicists to show me embargoed studies, to point out new
technology or to send the ocassional sample.

What I don't need are talking points, badges for enthusiasts or long
weekends at posh reorts without my family. These are the reasons I
can't trust bloggers who discuss products.

I know bloggers can have a meaningful negative impact on a brand, but
I'm not sure we have enough trust or reach to actually help a brand
any more.

And yes, it pains me to say that.

Typos?
Blame my iPhone or my colluge

http://www.JessicaGottlieb.com

Wow… how sad that you think that, especially being a blogger yourself. I've yet to give up hope that PR agencies and bloggers can work together in a relationship that's fully transparent and benefits all parties (including their readership).

The waters are definitely muddy, but couldn't you say that about traditional media as well? Are they still to be trusted?

Wow… how sad that you think that, especially being a blogger yourself. I've yet to give up hope that PR agencies and bloggers can work together in a relationship that's fully transparent and benefits all parties (including their readership).

The waters are definitely muddy, but couldn't you say that about traditional media as well? Are they still to be trusted?

Blogging has gifted me an intense distrust of all media.

The morning shows make me ill as all I can see is press releases and
pseudo journalism.

That being said, I would NEVER call myself a journalist

Typos?
Blame my iPhone or my colluge

http://www.JessicaGottlieb.com

Blogging has gifted me an intense distrust of all media.

The morning shows make me ill as all I can see is press releases and
pseudo journalism.

That being said, I would NEVER call myself a journalist

Typos?
Blame my iPhone or my colluge

http://www.JessicaGottlieb.com

If a blogger is working exclusively for a brand, then they are not an independent blogger. Brands can have bloggers on the payroll as employees and dictate what they right, but if I'm a blogger, I own my own business and reputation. I work as a professional and say what I mean and mean what I say – which is full disclosure and going into any agreement, it is established as such. Airing dirty laundry is not professional (I don't like the PR person, etc… Saying this product does not work as advertised IS NOT dirty laundry. It is professional to disclose it and even better for the brand if they are alerted to the issue and fix it. But it is NOT professional to just roll with it and exclude info that you feel should be talked about. Too many times brands take this FEEDBACK as negative when they should be happy to catch it – especially when it is on a new product launch and they can make changes before too many issues occur with other people who aren't on the payroll to cover it up.

Great post and ongoing discussion. Key point for brands is to look for creative ways to work with bloggers as they might work with any other IMC vendor. Looking at them as an integral supplier to the marketing department as opposed to as a media outlet will benefit both brand and bloggers.

Product reviews are only one way to work with bloggers. Brands that harness the creativity of bloggers to promote their brand in unique ways will succeed.

I think we're basically on the same page. It all comes back to having trust in the professional relationship between the blogger and the business, as Brett mentioned earlier. The trust and respect needs to come from both sides for it to work.

Thanks Stephanie!

What a great point, Maryanne. The reason this is hard to do is because of Liz's point in the first comment, that bloggers are “both the writers and the publishers, the reviewers and the ad sales team”. Bloggers do so much, it's hard to put them in a box as being one thing or another for your marketing program.

They're also individuals who have individual tastes and interests, which makes working with each one interesting (sometimes rewarding, sometimes frustrating) in a different way.

[...] May 14, 2010 by Maryanne Conlin I’ve been following along on the eruption of another round of discussion on the how, when and what of marketers working with bloggers. This topic crops up every few months or so. The latest round  can be found here and here. [...]

If your point Adam is that a blogger should behave a certain way if he or she wants to be treated a certain way, that’s fair. Professionalism begets professionalism. But it seems to me that you’re trying to paint the collective world of mom bloggers with a single brush. Some people weigh in on hot topics. Some don’t. Some do it with a level head. Some are consistent loose cannons. If you don’t want to engage with a particular person involved in a particular twitstorm, as Caleb said…don’t. Easy!But to suggest that an individual should never advocate for the causes and issues they believe in or speak honestly about a faulty product or advertiser – well that sort of demonstrates a lack of respect for of one of the greatest aspects of blogs. I think that Dooce can equally be a great Suave spokesperson while being mad at Whirlpool; the same way Cheryl Crowe can sign with Revlon even as she comes down on corporate polluters.

Love the Cheryl Crowe and Dooce examples. Well said.

Every sponsorship agreement has a code of conduct policy. It’s how companies are able to fire athletes, singers, etc.

What I’m talking about is the responsibility that comes with accepting payment. I don’t see Revlon paying Cheryl Crowe to trash Revlon. If you want to be paid/compensated that’s understandable, but be willing to lose control and haven incremental responsibility. If you prefer to be able to speak freely, if you will, about a product or company you’ll have a tough time selling the idea of compensation.

Thanks Adam, I’m very familiar with codes of conducts and morals clauses for celebrities.

But can you think of a particular example in which a blogger was being paid as a spokesperson for a particular brand and then trashed them? You reference Motrin and Whirlpool – but I don’t recall them having any bloggers on the payroll at all. Feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken.

[...] No doubt this debate will continue, as marketers need to break out of their “old media’ models and bloggers further assert themselves as hardworking assets to brands.  Others have written eloquently about great ways to compensate bloggers without paying for posts and how agencies should evolve. [...]

This is an excellent post. I do think bloggers are responsible for insisting on pay for work (and it’s important as a community that we bloggers help educate other bloggers about this), but that doesn’t relieve companies and agencies of the responsibility to deal fairly. I mean, a mechanic CAN take advantage of you…. but do we really just blame the car owner when that happens? There are responsibilities on both sides.

Caleb, thanks for sharing this post. It’s refreshing to hear agreement from the agency side.

Agreed on Liz’s comment below, and the other major issue is that bloggers largely are flying by the seat of their pants on how to handle pitches. I’ve seen comments about this topic from new bloggers — mostly wondering whether they should say yes to crummy opportunities just to get a foot in the door with agencies. I think the fast-paced nature of social media exacerbates the problem in the sense that a blogger might worry about losing out on an “opportunity” (or a future better one) if they don’t opt in.

Of course my response to that is no. If you want to grow and be taken seriously, then you need to operate with your own code of ethics from the beginning. There will always be another pitch.

-Christine

I have two replies for your comment:
1. There are plenty of bloggers who have high standards for their writing and behavior. If you choose to work with bloggers, it’s up to you to do your research and seek out those who meet your expectations for professionalism. There are plenty of us out there who are overlooked because we’re not engaging in loud public protests and activities. I am honestly surprised by the choices some agencies make in terms of blogger outreach (whether due to writing ability, professionalism or oversaturation with brands), but I’m not the one who has to justify my actions to the client.
2. Although I am not someone who typically jumps onto the outrage bandwagon, I think your characterization of bloggers in general is unfair and unfounded. First of all, protesting against an ad or a product that you disagree with does not necessarily constitute “whiny” or “immature” behavior. You clearly disagree with the Motrin Moms protest, but would it be fair to label your post whiny and immature? Secondly, Liz is right. You can hardly look at one group of bloggers and assume that we are all the same. We come from all walks of life, education levels, ages and professional experiences.

I review products (actual reviews with an opinion involved) and do giveaways on my site as part of my editorial content. But if a brand asks me for specific types of coverage or to go above and beyond, I fully expect to be paid. In both situations, I behave in a professional manner. I would never agree to work with a brand that I don’t feel good about. Nor would I want to work with a PR agency that doesn’t treat me with respect.

This is one of the best posts I’ve seen on the subject. The line between editorial content and advertorial content is one that many people can’t seem to grasp, but I think you’ve explained it quite well.

I am hoping that over time, brands and agencies will start flocking to bloggers who write clearly, express an opinion in their reviews and actually provide meaningful content to the blogosphere, rather than those who simply regurgitate a press release without giving any signs that they have used the product. Jessica Gottlieb complains about bloggers who take trips, products, etc., but I think the real issue is that they aren’t writing proper reviews. I don’t care what you received if your review includes pros and cons, so I can make my own decision about a product. Until that happens, I have to agree that we’re in danger of losing any form of credibility. Sadly, as long as agencies continue to reward “bad” behavior, it’s not going to go away.

On an aside, I have to give kudos to Edelman for the professionalism your firm puts forth. I am always delighted to work with the agency whether as a blogger or in my other “journalist” work on About.com.

The mechanic example is interesting, Kelby. Mechanics as a whole are one of those services that some people just don’t trust. Because some mechanics take advantage of people, the entire profession gets a bad rap.

I think that’s why I wrote this post. I don’t want to see that happen to agencies, and I think it is happening in certain circles because of some bad practices. I truly believe that bloggers and agencies (and their clients) can work together toward common goals, but the more agencies take advantage, the less bloggers will trust them.

Totally agree. Which is why education is important, and I think the more Liz and you and other bloggers educate newer bloggers, the better off we’ll all be.

Thanks!

Thanks for the kind words, Christy. We are growing into this subject just as anyone else is, but the more we can have these kinds of discussions, the better off we’ll all be – Edelman included.

I think both sides in a way reward “bad” behavior. There’s a weird co-dependent relationship between agencies and bloggers, where the agency gets their placement and the blogger gets what he or she perceives as validation. The loser, as you said, is credibility – on both ends.

This is an excellent post. I do think bloggers are responsible for insisting on pay for work (and it's important as a community that we bloggers help educate other bloggers about this), but that doesn't relieve companies and agencies of the responsibility to deal fairly. I mean, a mechanic CAN take advantage of you…. but do we really just blame the car owner when that happens? There are responsibilities on both sides.

Caleb, thanks for sharing this post. It's refreshing to hear agreement from the agency side.

Agreed on Liz's comment below, and the other major issue is that bloggers largely are flying by the seat of their pants on how to handle pitches. I've seen comments about this topic from new bloggers — mostly wondering whether they should say yes to crummy opportunities just to get a foot in the door with agencies. I think the fast-paced nature of social media exacerbates the problem in the sense that a blogger might worry about losing out on an “opportunity” (or a future better one) if they don't opt in.

Of course my response to that is no. If you want to grow and be taken seriously, then you need to operate with your own code of ethics from the beginning. There will always be another pitch.

-Christine

This is one of the best posts I've seen on the subject. The line between editorial content and advertorial content is one that many people can't seem to grasp, but I think you've explained it quite well.

I am hoping that over time, brands and agencies will start flocking to bloggers who write clearly, express an opinion in their reviews and actually provide meaningful content to the blogosphere, rather than those who simply regurgitate a press release without giving any signs that they have used the product. Jessica Gottlieb complains about bloggers who take trips, products, etc., but I think the real issue is that they aren't writing proper reviews. I don't care what you received if your review includes pros and cons, so I can make my own decision about a product. Until that happens, I have to agree that we're in danger of losing any form of credibility. Sadly, as long as agencies continue to reward “bad” behavior, it's not going to go away.

On an aside, I have to give kudos to Edelman for the professionalism your firm puts forth. I am always delighted to work with the agency whether as a blogger or in my other “journalist” work on About.com.

The mechanic example is interesting, Kelby. Mechanics as a whole are one of those services that some people just don't trust. Because some mechanics take advantage of people, the entire profession gets a bad rap.

I think that's why I wrote this post. I don't want to see that happen to agencies, and I think it is happening in certain circles because of some bad practices. I truly believe that bloggers and agencies (and their clients) can work together toward common goals, but the more agencies take advantage, the less bloggers will trust them.

Totally agree. Which is why education is important, and I think the more Liz and you and other bloggers educate newer bloggers, the better off we'll all be.

Thanks!

Thanks for the kind words, Christy. We are growing into this subject just as anyone else is, but the more we can have these kinds of discussions, the better off we'll all be – Edelman included.

I think both sides in a way reward “bad” behavior. There's a weird co-dependent relationship between agencies and bloggers, where the agency gets their placement and the blogger gets what he or she perceives as validation. The loser, as you said, is credibility – on both ends.

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Caleb, I just stumbled across this post and as a blogger who works heavily with pr and does plenty of reviews and giveaways, I find it so refreshing to see your perspective. I’ve been trying to push towards relationship based partnerships with PR and companies. To work with companies that I believe in and who have an interest in me as a person instead of someone who can push their product. THANK YOU for seeing the value in the time and effort put in from bloggers. You are exactly the kind of of person I’d love to work with. Feel free to contact me any time. I’d love the opportunity to collaborate!

Thanks Emilie. Glad you liked it, and glad you’re pushing for the same things. It’s the small strides that will add up to big change.

Caleb, I just stumbled across this post and as a blogger who works heavily with pr and does plenty of reviews and giveaways, I find it so refreshing to see your perspective. I've been trying to push towards relationship based partnerships with PR and companies. To work with companies that I believe in and who have an interest in me as a person instead of someone who can push their product. THANK YOU for seeing the value in the time and effort put in from bloggers. You are exactly the kind of of person I'd love to work with. Feel free to contact me any time. I'd love the opportunity to collaborate!

Thanks Emilie. Glad you liked it, and glad you're pushing for the same things. It's the small strides that will add up to big change.

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Totally agree. Which is why education is important, and I think the more Liz and you and other bloggers educate newer bloggers, the better off we’ll all be.Thanks